Sonny Liston versus Old Mongoose Archie Moore Heavyweight Title Dream Fight
By Robert Brizel, head Real Combat Media Boxing Correspondent
Here is an interesting historical matchup. Let su presume ‘The Old Mongoose’, Archie Moore, did not fight Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) in November 1962, and instead Archie had continued to defend the NYSAC version of the World Light Heavyweight title. This would have set the stage for a match between Charles ‘Sonny’ Liston and Moore in December 1963. Liston won the title with a first round knockout of Floyd Patterson at the Las Vegas Convention Center in September 1963. Floyd took the bout despite the urging of then President John F. Kennedy for Floyd not to fight Liston to avoid getting involved with his shady Las Vegas mafia connections. JFK and his Attorney General brother Robert Kennedy-were actively fighting the American Mafia across the United States at that time.
Moore, generally regarded as a highly defensive fighter with vast experience, had a career record of 185 wins, 23 losses and 10 draws, with 131 knockouts, between 1943 and 1963. Moore’s last professional bout was a third round stoppage of wrestler Mike DeBiase in Phoenix, Arizona, in March 1963. The time frame was reasonable enough Liston could have made his first title defense against old Archie in November or December of 1963.
Liston, whose career record was 50-4 with 39 knockouts, spent his life going in and out of prison. A suspicious BoxRec bout documents a light heavyweight named Sailor Liston fighting a four round draw with Johnny Agrella in Nebraska in May 1931. If this Liston was actually Sonny Liston, then in fact if Liston were born in reality in 1913, he would have been 18 at the time of this bout, and 50 years old when he first fought Floyd Patterson.
To solve this historical argument, 1940 Bureau of the Census records officially released through the National Archives website on April 2, 1912. A Charles Liston living in Smith Township in Arkansas had his age listed as 10 years old, living with his parents Tobbie and Helen. Liston had claimed the birthdate of May 8, 1932, from a birth certificate he received in 1953 for legal purposes. Therefore he was only two years younger than his correct age during his fight in career. His correct birthdate, July 22, 1930, is now listed on BoxRec. Liston died at age 40 on December 30, 1970, in Las Vegas. So he was not Sailor Liston.
Liston was 31 years old when he beat Floyd Patterson to win the world heavyweight title, not 30 years old as was stated at the time. Liston was 33 years old when he lost the world heavyweight title to Muhammad Ali, not 32 years old as was stated at the time.
Liston’s first loss as a professional was in September 1954, when Marty Marshall broke his jaw and won an eight round split decision. Liston won rematches with Marshall in 1954 (TKO 6) and 1957 (Win 10).
Moore spent his life in the ring, but in later life fighting at advanced age he had trouble, getting dropped three times in the first round by Yvon Durelle before winning in the eleventh round. Moore got knocked out by Rocky Marciano, Floyd Patterson and Cassius Clay (Muhammad Ali) in unsuccessful heavyweight attempts. Moore did beat World Light Heavyweight champion Joey Maxim three times by 15 round decision. Maxim went on to beat future World Heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson. Moore won a 15 round decision over Nino Valdez for the World Heavyweight title as recognized by Nevada. Moore lost three times to future World Heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles (Lost 10, Lost 10 and Kayo by 8), and was outpointed in 10 rounds by the great Charley Burley.
Liston went the distance 12 times. Moore went the distance 80 times. Style make fights, however, and this particular matchup favors Listononly because Moore was old. In his prime old Archie probably would have gone the distance with Liston. At age 46, Archie would have put up a fine defensive show, but after taking one knockdown too many, the referee would have stopped the bout anywhere between rounds eight and twelve in a schedule 15 round bout. Liston would have been too busy scoring with power shots, and too aggressive for old Archie to have withstood his power for 15 rounds. Archie might have lasted longer with Liston than he did with Marciano, owing to his defensive style. Liston would have won allof the rounds except maybe the first round or two. Once Liston figured Archie out, like Marciano, it would only have been a question of time.
At the time of Liston’s death, he was broke and doing loan shark collections in Las Vegas to pay his bills and debts. Liston, sadly, was an alcoholic using morphine, whose death was ruled a heart attack in December 1970. Liston is buried in Paradise Memorial Gardens in Las Vegas. Moore, second only to Bernard Hopkins in career active longevity in the light heavyweight division, died in December 1998 of heart failure, and is buried in an urn in niche 401 of Apostle Gallery, Cypress View Mausoleum in San Diego, California.
As evidenced by the photo accompanying this article, Liston and Moore met each other out of the ring. I have no doubt if Liston offered Moore a shot at his title, despite his age, old Archie would have taken his chance anyway. He always did. Archie complained he might have beaten Marciano if not for the referee’s interference in the second round (the referee helped Marciano get back up) and weight fluctuations. Overall, Old Archie was never a heavyweight. Archie was 0-6 against present and future world heavyweight champions. Archie was 191 pounds when he fought Muhammad Ali. Archie weighed 187 pounds when he fought Floyd Patterson. Archie weighed 188 pounds when he fought Rocky Marciano. Archie was not even a cruiserweight, so the thought Moore could beat a legitimate heavyweight like Liston was preposterous. Liston may have thrown a fixed to Ali in their rematch. Ali still appeared scared of Liston after the fight was stopped. Liston stopped Chuck Wepner in nine rounds in his last bout, and wasplanning to fight George Chuvalo whenhe died, a fight Liston would have won easily by 10 round decision, even at age 40.
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